Nicaragua, the small country where revolutionary feminist women are the protagonists.

Kawsachun News - As the Sandinista Revolution finally manages to make its platform a reality, Nicaragua has made significant gains in health, education, housing, renewable energy, and food sovereignty, to name a few key areas. One achievement that is beginning to attract more attention is the gain in equality for women. The 2022 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Nicaragua 7th in the world for gender parity.

Em Clearing the FogMargaret Flowers of Popular Resistance recently interviewed Jill Clark-Gollub, who recently returned from a trip with a delegation to Nicaragua that focused on the conditions of women. She describes the country as “led by women” who connect their feminism to struggles against capitalism, colonialism, and patriarchy. Clark-Gollub also counters misinformation about Nicaragua in the US corporate media and explains how the US is working to undermine the gains of the Sandinistas through hybrid warfare.

Below is the transcript of the interview conducted on January 30, 2023. You can listen to this episode in English. here.

Margaret Flores:

You are listening to Clearing the Fog: Speaking the Truth to Expose the Forces of Greed, with Margaret Flowers. And now I address my guest, Jill Clark-Gollub. Jill is a longtime translator, activist with Friends of Latin America, assistant editor at the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, supporter of Friends of the ATC (a Nicaraguan rural workers' organization), and also part of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, a new organization. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today, Jill.

Jill Clark-Gollub:

Thank you so much for having me, Margaret. It's a pleasure to be here.

MF:

Great. So, I'm excited to talk to you because you just got back from Nicaragua. There were 22 people from the United States and Canada hosted by the Jubilee House Community-Casa Benjamin Linder and the Alliance for Global Justice. And you were there to explore the conditions of women in Nicaragua. Can you talk a little about that delegation and what you did while you were there?

JCG:

Sure. So, the delegates were from all over the United States and ranged in age from college students to their 80s. Plus, two school-aged children accompanied their mother on the trip and had part of their own program. But, in addition to the four college students, our group included a pediatric surgeon, a university professor, a Climate Change and Health Equity program manager, a licensed clinical social worker, members of the Green Party and the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, activists from the Black Alliance for Peace and other social movements, and a handful of retired professionals. So, this was a very well-informed and, overall, really solid group of women and some men.

MF:

Great. And while you were in Nicaragua, what kinds of places did you visit? Who did you talk to?

JCG:

The delegation was designed to see how Nicaragua has come to be so highly rated by various international agencies in terms of gender equality. The World Economic Forum, which is not a pro-socialist group, ranks Nicaragua first in the Americas and seventh in the world for gender parity. We met with healthcare professionals and visited a hospital and a clinic. We met with people working to end violence against women, including in women's police stations. We met with women in Parliament, with women and men trade unionists, and with peasant women, and learned about their own kind of peasant feminism.

So, what we discovered reinforced the impression I've been forming during study delegations to Nicaragua over the past four years: that this is a country run by women. The country has what they call the 50-50 rule. This means that every party that presents candidates for an elected office must have half of them as women. Therefore, in an election for mayor and vice-mayor, one of the top two positions must be a woman, and with candidates for city council, a given party has to run with as many women as men. And the same goes for the national legislative body. Forty percent of the police officers are women. And the vast majority of healthcare professionals are women, which is probably also true in the United States. But, from doctors and nurses to cleaning and support staff, all these healthcare professionals are unionized and benefit – not because of the union – but because they are Nicaraguan citizens, they benefit from free education from primary school to postgraduate studies. The health professionals in the union told us that they take advantage of opportunities to continue obtaining more certifications and diplomas because it helps them climb the career ladder.

We learned that (more than) 50% of the national budget is spent on social policies such as health, education, poverty reduction, and infrastructure like roads. We visited one of the 24 new hospitals that have been built since the Sandinistas returned to power in 2007. And this was a beautiful, state-of-the-art, and very impressive hospital. And it's run by a 39-year-old woman who is the hospital director. This young doctor said that people often ask her, “Are you the hospital director?” But yes, she is, and she is quite competent! And this beautiful hospital is part of a network of modern hospitals that now exists in Nicaragua and is available free of charge to everyone in Nicaragua, even foreigners, who may have a medical problem during their visit. We learned that maternal mortality has fallen by two-thirds since the Sandinistas returned to power in 2007, and infant mortality and malnutrition have fallen at similar rates. And part of this is not just the robust health system, but also creative approaches, such as the maternity waiting home program. We visited one of these maternity waiting houses. That's where women in urban areas who are experiencing high-risk pregnancies, and women in remote areas who don't have easy access to a hospital, can come after, I think, 36 or 37 weeks of gestation. And they stay there for two or three weeks until the baby is born, where they rest, eat well, and receive good follow-up care. And they are right there near a hospital where they can give birth. We saw a beautiful facility that was located in the community of Ciudad Sandino.

So there are many interesting things we can see and learn. We learned more about the community-based healthcare model, where healthcare professionals care for 3.500 to 5.000 people in a neighborhood. And they know who is pregnant, who is elderly, who has diabetes and other non-communicable diseases, who has disabilities and may need wheelchairs and extra support. And that's why they did a great job dealing with Covid-19. And we also met with people in another unique program they have: what they call women's police stations. This includes police officers trained to deal with victims of trauma, violence against women and children, and sexual abuse, in a way that doesn't retraumatize or revictimize people. And we also talked to police officers, and someone said, "We've noticed that when we see police officers, they don't seem to be armed." And they told us that yes, they generally don't carry weapons unless they are protecting a physical facility or on an operation. There are, you know, raids against drug traffickers because of Nicaragua's location, but for regular street policing—traffic wardens and what you might see in your neighborhood—those officers don't (carry weapons), there isn't even one gun for every officer. This really contrasts with what we see in the United States, where we have our police departments becoming increasingly militarized with the abundance of weapons that exist in this country. And so, although they have some of the lowest per capita policing and defense spending in the region, they have the lowest crime rate in Central America. Therefore, this community policing and community healthcare has been really effective.

And I would just like to mention that even when we talk about victims of crime and violence, there is an atmosphere of healing and of approaching the whole person, the whole family. There is not so much emphasis on punishment. And that is why there has been a lot of effort – and this is part of the Sandinista tradition in Nicaragua – toward reconciliation between all parties. And in fact, the national government that has been in office since 2007 calls itself the Government of Reconciliation and National Unity.

So, we also discovered that there's a union of self-employed workers, which is very interesting, and we met with them. They're mainly street vendors who organized themselves into a union and fought for the right not to be evicted from certain public spaces and in front of buildings, and so on. They came to meet us and were very eager to talk about how, when there's going to be construction on a corner where one of them works, they get help to move to another corner so they can still earn a living during that time. And then, of course, these people benefit from health and education programs, and their children get better jobs. And we saw a lot of that. I don't know if you have any questions now.

MF:

Yes, I mean, it's incredible. And there was a recent Gallup poll that found that, out of 122 countries, Nicaragua was the number one country where most people reported feeling at peace. 73% of the population said they always feel at peace in Nicaragua. It's interesting that nine of the top 14 countries in the world are Latin American, and compared to Nicaragua, only 28% of people in the United States said they feel at peace. But it wasn't always like that. In Nicaragua, there has been a lot of turbulence in recent decades: the Somoza dictatorship, the Revolution, and then the war between the US Contras and the Sandinistas, and then the neoliberal period. And then, finally, in 2006, Daniel Ortega was elected. And so, it really has been, since then, as you said, these programs have been implemented. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between the approach in Nicaragua and in the United States? I mean, fundamentally in Nicaragua it's more based on human rights, and we'll talk a little about that, right?

JCG:

Exactly. There's the UN declaration – the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is incorporated into Nicaraguan law. And so, the first thing President Ortega did when he returned to office in 2007 was to declare that education was free and for everyone, because during the neoliberal years there was something happening that we see infiltrating our education system in the US, as it becomes increasingly privatized. They said, oh, to give more educational freedom, you're going to pay the teacher and, you know, you can bring your own desk to school, and we don't need to have these school lunch programs. And you can pay all these school fees and you have to pay a fee to take the end-of-year exams. Many children dropped out of school, and that was a very bad period for Nicaragua. You talked about all those other periods of violence, but this was a time of tremendous institutionalized violence – people starving to death and people dying at the doors of hospitals because they couldn't afford services, or couldn't afford a taxi to get to the hospital that provided the service they needed.

And so, starting in 2007, Nicaragua experienced 11 years of tremendous growth. And that's when all these programs really took hold. Many of them stalled in the 1980s because of the Contra War and also because Somoza had left the coffers completely empty. The three neoliberal presidents from 1990 until the beginning of 2007 also did their part in looting the government coffers. But Nicaragua, the Sandinista government, had a very effective strategy they called tripartite governance – working with business owners, unions, and the government. And they negotiated minimum wage increases every year and all sorts of improvements for workers, while at the same time building health and education services, infrastructure, and things like roads. So, I know you've probably mentioned this before, at least, but there was a violent coup attempt in 2018 in Nicaragua. It was a very ugly situation, like the guarimbas in Venezuela, and it lasted three months. To put it in the US context, it was like what happened on January 6th, but with people being targeted in their neighborhoods over the course of three months. But thankfully, that's over now, and Nicaraguans are very enthusiastic about their government. They have made progress, despite increased US sanctions since then, and despite a pandemic and two category 4 and 5 hurricanes two years ago. But the country is progressing, and people are simply receiving more education, more healthcare, and seeing more development for their country. And the road network is now the best in all of Central America. 

And I think it's perhaps the second or third best in Latin America. And while previously Nicaragua had the worst roads in the region, this is very important in helping people in different communities access school, higher education, hospitals, to get to a health center when someone has an accident, and for farmers – 40% of Nicaragua's population is still rural – and many are involved in small-scale agriculture, so the roads allow farmers to also get their products to market. And another wonderful benefit of the roads was connecting Nicaragua's Caribbean coast, which has had a different development history than Nicaragua's Pacific coast. This is where most of Nicaragua's indigenous and Afro-descendant population lives, and therefore now they are more connected to the rest of the country. I've talked a lot.

MF:

So much we could talk about! You know, the Caribbean coast is a very interesting place, because I traveled there in 2021 when I was on a delegation, because a lot of work has been done to partner with Indigenous communities and the university system, trying to bring Indigenous knowledge to make it more widely available to people, as well as working on land reform. I was in—now it's called Bilwi, but I think it used to be Puerto Cabezas—and that land was returned to the Indigenous people who owned it, and they actually receive taxes from this capital. I think about the possibilities here in the United States, with our similar history against the Indigenous population, and the possibilities of what we could be doing.

JCG:

Yes, Nicaragua has many things in common with many socialist, or socialist, revolutions around the world. But it has some very unique characteristics, and one of them is that it is one of the countries that has redistributed land the most. And I think that now 600.000 land titles have been officially issued to people. This includes both houses in urban areas and small agricultural properties in rural areas. A third or more than a third of the national territory has been legally titled to indigenous and Afro-descendant communities in the autonomous regions of the Caribbean coast. So they own the land and cultivate it or manage the forests communally. This is a very unique and beautiful experience. Just a little more information for your listeners… The delegation we just concluded on women was preceded by an online course to learn about women in Nicaragua. It was done in English and Spanish with simultaneous translation. In it you can hear many women talking about the process. The last episode is about the Caribbean coast, but we have an episode about women's general rights. We have one about small businesses, or communities and grassroots economics, and women who have benefited from programs specifically aimed at female heads of household to improve the family economy and diet. They receive some farm animals, agricultural products and seeds, and technical services to help them on their smallholdings. And this has not only improved the family economy and the diet of their children and reduced malnutrition, but it is also part of the reason why Nicaragua is almost entirely food sovereign. There is a national policy supporting native seeds and agroecology. And you mentioned the Nicaraguan rural workers' association. This has been an important part of the worldwide peasant rights movement called La Via Campesina.

MF:

So, you actually left Nicaragua in the mid-1990s, right? Yes, yes. I remember meeting her—I stayed with a family kind of in the mountains, far from any kind of big city. You know, it took us hours driving on those dirt roads to get to this village. And one of the daughters of the family we stayed with was a single mother. She had received business training and had a shop right there that supplied goods to the people in that community. But that also gave her economic autonomy and security. And for her son, the school was right there. He could walk to school. It was a great setup for her to be able to raise her son and have some independence and self-sufficiency.

JCG:

I've also heard of other people meeting with families, rural families like you, and learning that a son is becoming a doctor, a daughter is becoming a lawyer, another son or nephew is becoming another type of professional, and they are concerned about who will stay on the farm. And this is something that Nicaragua has been very successful at. Forty percent of the population still lives in rural areas, which is higher than in most of Latin America. Furthermore, part of Via Campesina's mission is to make life more dignified in the countryside so that it is pleasant for people to stay there and to encourage people to stay there, which is how the country can grow its own food.

Then I mentioned that online course about women. There's a session on Women in Hybrid Warfare, which I highly recommend, where some young women talk about their experiences and what they should know so that another coup attempt cannot succeed against the people of Nicaragua. And there's a session on peasant and popular feminism. And so this group wants to continue offering these online courses. And some of the topics we discussed are the autonomy of the Caribbean coast, which is very unique and something I think would be interesting for people looking at indigenous and Afro-descendant rights. And also food sovereignty is another very interesting topic.

But I want to return to something we learned from the Nicaraguan women on this trip and also through the online course when describing their version of feminism. This really helped me gain more clarity. This became especially apparent when we visited an ATC women's cooperative near El Crucero, not far from Managua. And it was wonderful to see those women again and how they continue to progress. And we met women who are in various communities, small communities in the mountainous region of northern Nicaragua, going north of the city of Estelí. This is called the Women Among Women Foundation, or FEM, as it is known. And they came from a place where they were poor peasant women who couldn't read or write, who suffered terribly in the 1990s under a female president whom the US helped bring to power, and they couldn't feed their children and suffered violence in their own homes. And so they organized themselves and formed this organization. And over the years, they have strongly advocated for women's education and awareness about femicide and sexual and reproductive rights. And they allied themselves with some of the feminist groups in Managua, who tend to be the kind of people who get a lot of press coverage in the United States and tell us things like there are no rights for women in Nicaragua because abortion isn't legal. And the FEM was distancing itself from them because it didn't see them as truly supporting what peasant women need. The World Economic Forum (WEF) is running a major campaign to store seeds, which are so important for food sovereignty. And with the attempted coup of 2018, they completely broke with these women because they saw that they were allies of the Catholic Church and that they were helping to bring violence to their country. And now they were telling us that they had clarified their understanding of their role in their communities. They still feel very much like locals, but they say they are fighting against a troika of oppression, which is: capitalism, colonialism, and patriarchy. And when you think about it, it really encompasses a lot, and we can see how capitalism hurts women when, for example, it privatizes healthcare and people can't afford healthcare services, and women are dying in childbirth and from other things they shouldn't be dying from, from cancers that aren't treated, and so on. And we can see colonialism. Nicaragua was a colony of Spain for 300 years, and for the last 200 years, since the Monroe Doctrine, whose anniversary is this year, the United States has been trying to make Nicaragua its new colony. And for the last forty-three years or more, Nicaragua has resisted this, and with increasing effectiveness each day. And Nicaraguan women are aware that the 2018 coup attempt was an attempt to bring back that neocolonial status, to bring Nicaragua back under US control. And that the sanctions and attacks on Nicaragua aim to discredit and try to isolate Nicaragua, so that it becomes more vulnerable to the control of capitalist interests and the United States government. Of course, patriarchy puts women at a disadvantage, and all of this is facilitated by capitalism and colonialism. So I really think we have a lot to learn from the women of Nicaragua, and really from the Nicaraguan people. And the women also told us that they had, for example, a mobile clinic program to help women in rural areas receive medical services more easily. And they said, "We just stopped that because the government is doing it now." And we realize that supporting this government is also part of our struggle, because this government is doing what we, the peasant women of Nicaragua, need it to do, right?”

MF:

Yes. And that attack, that hybrid war by the United States. I mean, it continues, as you said, and the media, the corporate media in the United States, is part of it. Just before our interview, I thought, well, I'll look up and see, you know, what's in the news recently about Nicaragua. And in the corporate media, it's all about the dictatorship and it's not safe to travel there. And religious people – they're claiming religious persecution. And it's incredible to me because that goes against the facts.

JCG:

Yes, I was surprised that we had a meeting that really clarified this issue with the church. So, just to briefly tell your listeners, another unique thing about the Nicaraguan Revolution is that when it emerged in the 1970s, liberation theology was really flourishing in Latin America. And there were many believers in Liberation Theology – both priests and nuns and lay people – who were very motivated by that place of faith that we need to help people have a better life here on Earth and help liberate people. They were involved in the revolution, and there were priests in the government, and there were many religious activists. But the hierarchy of the Catholic Church was always against it. And the hierarchy of the Catholic Church remained constant. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church supported the coup efforts (2018), and there were even videos and recordings of priests who were present at the torture scenes. And even directing the torture and telling people how to hide it. On a previous visit, I met some people who spoke about this. They were practicing Catholics who were deeply disturbed to see the parish priest instructing people to loot and burn a government service building. This led some Catholics to formally stop practicing their faith, although they strongly believe in their Christian beliefs and feel the need to work to help create a more just society.

So, since the 1960s – starting in the 1960s – there was something called Base Christian Communities in Nicaragua and other countries, and some of these Base Christian Communities still survive. We went to Sunday services with one of these communities in a poor neighborhood in Managua, and it was a really beautiful experience. People who aren't necessarily very religious were very moved because it's such a horizontal experience. There's no priest. It's led by the community members. And there were three women at the front, even before they knew it was a group focused on women's issues. After their service, we had this dialogue. They suffered some threats of violence during 2018 because people knew they were Sandinistas. They also helped collect signatures on a petition to remove one of the bishops who was actually one of the leaders of the violence. They petitioned Pope Francis and got over half a million adult Catholics in Nicaragua to sign – a small country where less than half the population is Catholic. That's a very large percentage of the population. And Pope Francis called him back to Rome, and now he's left Rome and is in Miami, claiming he had to flee to save his life from the "dictator" Daniel Ortega, okay? But the real story is different.

But also, the people in this community were telling us about their problems with the hierarchy and how the hierarchy represents the old order. They are allies of money and the patriarchal system. So, once again, if you want to fight against capitalism, neocolonialism, and patriarchy for the emancipation of women, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is not on your side. And they are actively participating – they are being manipulated, I believe, by the United States government to give Nicaragua bad publicity. Last August, one of these bishops who incited violence and used his radio stations to raise money to pay people for the violence was placed under house arrest, and now his trial is beginning. So you will hear more about that.

MF:

Okay. And this is the context that people in the United States don't hear because the US has a long history of hybrid warfare against Nicaragua. It continues to this day, and under, you know, I think it was President Trump, under his administration, the NICA Act was passed. And then it was under Biden that the RENAISSANCE Act was passed?

JCG:

Yes. Biden signed the REBIRTH Act just days before Nicaraguans went to the polls for the presidential election in November 2021.

MF:

Yes. And all of this was based on the lie of claiming that, you know, there was corruption and dictatorship in Nicaragua. And then, I think recently more sanctions were imposed by the Biden administration.

JCG:

Yes. They keep adding sanctions and say they are targeted sanctions, but they target entities like the Minister of Health. This sanction affects everyone in the country who uses health services because when the Minister of Health is sanctioned, she cannot be involved in any international purchases of supplies needed for the health system. So they, in fact, had to replace her and continue to do so with different people. And they also recently sanctioned Nicaraguan gold exports, which was the largest source of export funds for Nicaragua. So all of this helps... You know, when 57% of the budget goes to social programs, you're cutting money for things like that. This will affect social programs, but Nicaraguans have been very resilient so far, and producing over 90% of the food their population eats is a great help. But, you know, we see where this is going. We see what happened to countries like Venezuela, Iran, and Cuba, and we don't want that to happen to Nicaragua. Therefore, I definitely hope that your listeners, if they are not already connected to solidarity groups, will be. I don't know if writing to Congress is the most effective thing, but you can help spread the word and raise awareness. And I know that you, Margaret, are very involved in the Sanctions Kill campaign, and I would like to encourage all your listeners to get involved as well. Because sanctions kill. They are not harmless. They are a form of warfare.

MF:

And actually, the International People's Tribunal on US Imperialism will launch on January 28th, and its main focus will be on sanctions. The US has illegal sanctions and economic blockades against so many countries. So there's a lot we can do here. Now, you mentioned the school, the classes. Where can people find these courses online?

JCG:

You can go to Casa Benjamin Linder https://www.casabenjaminlinder.org/ and look for the Nicaragua Study Guide, https://www.casabenjaminlinder.org/nicaragua-study-guide and the Alliance for Global Justice https://afgj.org/ and search for them. And we will certainly also have a webinar with the fabulous participants of our delegation returning their reports. And we will definitely let you know so that the popular resistance can share links to it.

MF:

Yes. And there are so many different delegations going to Nicaragua that I think people shouldn't heed those travel warnings. I mean, it's very safe to be in Nicaragua, wouldn't you agree?

JCG:

Absolutely. I mean, you can walk the streets at night and go jogging before sunrise, and I haven't heard of anyone having problems.

MF:

Yes, and I did both, but when I was down there! And yes, the people are simply wonderful. It's a beautiful country, the volcanoes and the lakes. And I mean, there's so much natural beauty there too. And then we haven't mentioned the energy, you know, Nicaragua, go for it.

JCG:

Yes, Nicaragua has 77% renewable energy in its grid today. They are only just beginning to explore wind and solar power. They also have geothermal, hydro, and biomass. Geothermal is very interesting, and I know I just told you that there's a delegation that will be looking into it in June. That's a familiar delegation, I would say.

MF:

Yes. And that's so that children can see volcanoes and all sorts of cool things like that. And then, if you can quickly, would you mind just saying a few words about the Internationalist Women's Front for Justice and Peace? That's so interesting.

JCG:

Sure. It's a group of Latina women, mostly in the United States, that formed in April to promote Francia Márquez, who was a vice-presidential candidate and is now the vice president of Colombia. Because there have been so many assassinations of social movement leaders in Colombia and assassinations of left-wing candidates throughout Colombia's history, we wanted to raise her profile to make it harder to assassinate her. And from there, we supported Lula's campaign in Brazil and strongly supported what we call the Troika of Resistance: Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua – the countries that are really on the front lines doing what so many of our countries would like to be doing and facing the wrath of the United States for doing it. But also new democracies like Honduras, which is now facing similar attacks. And the US ambassador to Nicaragua during the 2018 coup attempt is now the US ambassador to Honduras. She's doing the same sort of thing and speaks openly about Honduran politics and criticizes Honduras for cracking down on NGOs, which Nicaragua and many countries have had to do to stop money laundering and block a channel for hybrid warfare money coming in. And they even accused Xiomara Castro of not being pro-woman because she hasn't legalized abortion yet. You know, this is when she's been in office for less than a year.

And there's something I'd like to mention about Nicaragua. Did I say that abortion isn't legal in Nicaragua? And some people on the left consider that the sole parameter by which to measure whether a country is pro-woman or respects women's rights. This law was passed before the Sandinistas returned to power and before they had a majority in the legislature, and it had over 80% support from the population. The Nicaraguan population is very Christian and generally not in favor of abortion. However, there is free family planning available in all clinics. At this clinic in Ciudad Sandino, we heard about the implant placement program for young women. And also, there are still about 30 percent of women having children at a young age, but the average age for having a first child is now almost 27, which is great progress. Furthermore, the average number of children is less than 3, and I spoke with peasant women on previous visits to Nicaragua and heard that the women in their communities – whereas before their mothers and grandmothers had 10 or 14 children – women are now having two or perhaps three children. And we heard this repeatedly from other women's groups and health professionals that women, once they have the number of babies they want, can have a free tubal ligation before leaving the hospital. This is encouraged and it's free. And, you know, birth control is also widely available.

MF:

So, you know, yes, that's part of when we try to establish our standards about other countries and judge them in that way.

JCG:

But there's something else, Margaret. Another thing that reminded me of the Cubans' approach to the Cuban Family Code, which has been celebrated for being progressive, and it really was a wonderful process of consultations throughout the country. Initially, people weren't in favor of same-sex marriage. So, when we were in the delegation, someone asked at the Ministry of Women if same-sex marriage was recognized, and the minister said, “We have no problem with that. The FSLN as a party has no problem with that. But we know we can't just pass a law. We need our society to get there, right?” And I think that can also be applied to abortion. So, these are things that society is working on. And also with the police, someone asked about trans women and they said, you know, the police protect the rights of trans women. The police have no problem protecting trans women. And, in fact, I was happy to see for the first time on this last visit to Nicaragua, I noticed trans women openly on the street. So, I think there's more acceptance of that, and I also know that among the women of the FEM they definitely work on gender diversity rights and cultural change, and it's very beautiful to see what they've accomplished. And I think that's also true for the ATC.

MF:

Okay. And I think it's like a natural evolution, once you're able to create a political system in which people's rights are supported, their basic needs are met, then you have that structure and the opportunity to start having some of these broader discussions about rights and respect for people's rights and autonomy. So, you know, it's the US interference through economic warfare, through, as you said, influence, through NGOs, and trying to impact elections, that inhibits society's ability to make that progress. Therefore, we need to be aware that, to judge Nicaragua, we need to focus on what the United States is doing to the country, which is actually inhibiting people's ability, right, to a certain extent, to organize. But they are doing it anyway.

JCG:

Yes, and they are making progress, and I see it. My mother is Nicaraguan, so I've known Nicaragua for a long time and was active in the 80s, and then I became active and really looking more into Nicaragua in the last four or five years. And I see progress every time I address these same social issues.

MF:

Well, there's so much to learn in the United States from Nicaragua, and so many different facets. So, I really appreciate the work you do going to these delegations and reporting on them. But you've also given a lot of support to different kinds of educational programs and webinars here in the United States. And it's very important for us to have these opportunities to learn about Nicaragua.

JCG:

And I really appreciate everything you do through Popular Resistance, Margaret. You really help social movements in our different countries to stay connected and get information from each other. So, thank you for everything you do.

MF:

Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to talk.